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NAOSHERWAN:
Fifty years of Sufism Reoriented. Murshida Conner, could you look back and reminisce, but before you do that, could you let the readers of Glow International know when you became a mureed and what brought you into Meher Baba’s fold?
MURSHIDA:
I believe I have always been aware of Meher Baba’s presence in the world, but it was not until I was 35 years old that I was to know his name and see his face in photographs. From my early childhood, I sensed a quality of light, like a presence, infusing all of life, especially nature. I also had the impression that people — all people — were sacred and that somehow God was in the midst of all human situations.

Did you grow up in a traditional Christian home?
Yes, I did. My family were Lutherans, a strict Protestant denomination. Many of my family were ministers of that faith. However, I quickly recognized that within organized religion people were as lost as they were outside in the world. People knew very little about central meanings of life, even within the fold of religions. So throughout my teens and college years you might say that I was on a quest, but I didn’t know the word quest and much less words like Perfect Master, Avatar, planes of consciousness, etc. Then when I was 35 years old, a close friend, Dr. James MacKie, introduced me to Meher Baba. I recognized him instantly as the Christ, God the Beloved, The Only Being and became a devotee. Soon thereafter I met Murshida Duce and became one of Baba’s American Sufis.

Could you give our readers, unfamiliar with Sufism Reoriented a little background... And as a follow up, how do you see the organization positioned in spiritual terms in relation to other Sufi groups in the U.S.?
Prior to 1948 when Murshida Duce first met Baba, the Sufi Order in America had first been under the guidance of Hazrat Inayat Khan, then later Rabia Martin. Inayat Khan was sent to America from India by his own teacher, to spread Sufism in the West. Before he died in 1927, he appointed a Jewish woman from San Francisco, Murshida Martin, as his successor.
     When Princess Norina Matchabelli visited San Francisco in 1941, she gave one of her public talks about Meher Baba at an assembly hall in the city. Murshida Martin was in the audience. This is how she first learned that the Avatar was incarnate in the world. She immediately began to correspond with Baba, hoping to place her life and the Sufi Order in his hands. These are very touching letters sent to and from Murshida Martin and Baba. It was, however, not her destiny to meet Baba personally, as she succumbed quite soon thereafter to cancer. Before passing on, she appointed a gifted student, Ivy O. Duce, as her successor. Ivy Duce had also been in correspondence with Baba and also believed him to be the Avatar. So in 1948, Murshida Duce traveled to India to lay the Sufi Order in America at Baba’s feet.
     Murshida was immensely surprised when Meher Baba told her that though she was under the impression that she was seeking him out to have his guidance or patronage for this Order, he told her “I have drawn you to me.” He went on to tell her that it was her destiny to be a Sufi Murshid or guide and that he felt that the West was ready for a real Sufi Murshid. He wanted Sufism to spread and grow there. Now, Baba, in talks at one time or another, had been very explicit that he had great work to do in America that was to help galvanize his New Humanity so that it could spread all over the globe. He told people that he intended to spiritualize America. Of course, at that time America was not a very spiritual country and Baba was also explicit about that. He said people with pretty bad karma come and incarnate here. If they do well and earn good karma, they go to India and incarnate there. So, he was very clear about the spiritual status of America at the time he began his work. But he did say that he intended to spiritualize this country and said that America would one day lead the world spiritually. Strange as it may seem, those were his words.

Did Meher Baba actually say, that he wanted to establish a spiritual order in this country?
That’s correct. That he wanted Sufism — and I’ll talk a little bit more about what he meant by Sufism, since there is quite a lot of confusion about the term “Sufism.” He wanted Sufism to become established in America and to flourish there. Baba came to America six times in all, three times in the 1930s and three times in the 1950s. A critical visit was one he made in 1952, when he did four major things to consolidate his programme to transform or spiritualize America. One was to create an outline for the development of what he called his Universal Spiritual Center at Myrtle Beach. Another was to draft an entirely fresh charter of guidance for Sufism under his patronage. He spent a good bit of time in 1952 working on that. He met with Murshida Duce, her daughter Charmian (who had been a mureed of Murshida Martin, and had accompanied her mother to India to meet Baba in 1948), and Francis Brabazon, representing the Australian branch of this Sufi Order, in the Lagoon Cabin at Myrtle Beach for several hours each day for several days. He began these meetings almost immediately after arriving at the Myrtle Beach Center. It was an important order of business. Then as he recuperated in Elizabeth’s home at Myrtle Beach after his accident, he had Adi read the Charter to him a half an hour every day as he reviewed its provisions. Talks with Murshida continued later that year, when Baba was in New York. Of course, correspondence went back and forth between Murshida and Meher Baba about the Charter throughout the year. Then in fall, back in India, as he was resting up to start his Fiery Free Life and the Mass Darshan programme in Andhra State, he continued to work on the Charter diligently. He said he wanted to make it strong so that it would last 700 years until he came again.
     And then there was his wish to publish his great book in the English language in America. That was, as you know, put in the hands of Sufism and we put the book out in 1955.

God Speaks…
God Speaks, yes. So these were four ways in which Meher Baba crystallized outwardly the inner work he was doing to prepare America to take up a new role in a new age.
What Baba meant, by Sufism, was not Islamic Sufism. He always used the word Sufism in its universal sense, as seekers of God, those who wish to draw closer to God, to love him, praise him, and know him by actual experience. Meher Baba said that Sufis always come in the wake of the Avatar. So Baba said that the first Sufis were at the time of Zoroaster and there were Sufis surrounding every Avatar. The last one, of course, was Mohammed. He would say, “I am a Sufi. I am the great Sufi. I am the greatest Sufi.”
So he always used Sufism in this universal sense, not a sectarian sense. Well, he meant by “Sufi” people who want to draw closer to him, and live Divinity. So, his intent was to start a spiritual order in America that would be well established and could grow, presumably because America now was to become a spiritual country and would need a spiritual order, as there have been for ages throughout India, the Middle East, North Africa, etc.
According to the Sufi Charter, Meher Baba intended making Sufism Reoriented non-dogmatically universal. The way it exists today, it is essentially an American organization, functioning in North America by Americans and for Americans. Do you, as Murshida, plan to universalize it under your stewardship?

That question can only be answered by first clarifying what Baba meant when he speaks in the Charter of making it non-dogmatically universal. An important part of Baba’s work in this advent was to purify all of the great religions — Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.— to revitalize them at their very core so that instead of experiencing dogmas and rituals, people could experience the light that initially gave birth to that religious stream.

What I meant in my question was that do you plan to take it beyond the shores of the United States?
Yes, I will answer that. Murshida Duce laid at Baba’s feet an order of Sufism that had evolved from the Chishtiya lineage. This was a branch of Islamic Sufism that came from the Qutub of the thirteenth century, Moinuddin Chishti. Meher Baba wanted to pare away from it all ritual, dogma, tenets, practices, etc. that had accrued around that stream of Sufism in the seven centuries it had been flowing away from its source. He wanted to lay bare its core, which, in Baba’s words, is “love and longing for God.” Then he wanted to put himself at the centre of it. This fresh stream was to flow from him.
So in 1952, Sufism, which Baba renamed Sufism Reoriented, had an entirely fresh start. Its connections with the past were entirely severed and Sufism was to begin once again centered on praise and worship of the Avatar of this Age. So we have no connection whatsoever with Sufi…

Islamic…
Yes, Islamic groups. I probably know as little or even less about them than many others do.

But in terms of universalizing it, taking it beyond the shores of North America, is there a plan or a blueprint whereby you might want to take Sufism beyond the shores of North America and make it inclusive.
First, I don’t think of myself as laying plans or blueprints for Sufism. I think of our Order as being guided by Beloved Baba. We think of Baba laying the plans and charting the directions. And at this time we have had no call to extend ourselves in any way in that direction, either north up to Canada or south to South America.

Or to any other country.
Well, to any other country no, of course not, since Meher Baba chartered our school of Sufism for the American continent, very important to understand that it is for the American continent. So we, of course, don’t have any intent to do anything in another country. That isn’t the guidance that Baba has given us.

In the Charter again, in the Sufi Charter, Meher Baba termed the organization as the order of Sufism Reoriented. Yet today it is often called a school of spiritual mysticism. I am not very clear. Is Sufism Reoriented today functioning as a school or a spiritual order? And when I say a spiritual order, I am looking at the Sufi spiritual orders like the Chishtiya or some of the other Islamic spiritual orders where you have initiation and so forth. Is it functioning as a strict spiritual order or as a school of spiritual learning?
In my understanding those two concepts are not in conflict or mutually exclusive. The answer is we are both. We are chartered as both. I believe that all spiritual orders also provide instruction and nutrition for the growth of their members, whether it is St. Teresa’s Carmelite sisters in Avila, whether it is St. Francis’ brethren in Assisi or Nizamuddin Auliya and his students in Delhi. They all provide opportunities for students to come and ask questions and have them answered. They give talks or discourses to keep people meditating on Divinity, thinking about Him, taking His name and so forth. They have musical gatherings in which beautiful music is sung that carries the message that they want their students to remember. They publish books. St. Teresa wrote books about her experiences of the spiritual path so that her sisters could understand these processes.

When new members come into Sufism Reoriented, do you initiate them? Is there an initiation process or a ceremony?
There is a provision in the Charter for initiation of new members. In the past we did have initiations. I, myself, was initiated as a new member. . .

…by Murshida Duce.
...yes, by Murshida Duce. It is a simple ceremony, nothing elaborate at all. In recent years we have initiated a few members but in the interest of keeping the boundaries of Sufism flexible and permeable we have moved away from general initiations. It seems helpful for people to be able to explore our Sufi path and then if they find that they are drawn back out into the world because of unfinished learning there, to freely leave without having to formally be uninitiated, so to speak.

My next question I think is very important. Since one of the precepts of active faith outlined in the Charter is to serve and strive for human brotherhood, universal fellow-feeling and world peace through spiritual enlightenment, does Sufism Reoriented have an outreach programme that could bring the organization in the forefront, in universal terms, specially working towards world peace in tangible terms?
Sufism Reoriented has for the past 30 years been pleased to invest a lot of energy in the Meher Schools in California. The Meher Schools is a preschool and elementary school with pre-care, after-care, and summer school that serves 380 children from the broader community. These are not Baba families. They are people from our general community. The purpose of the school is to infuse Meher Baba’s principles of the New Age of cooperation, harmony, brotherhood and love into childhood education. We feel this is an important project, one that we have cherished.

Is that a part of the curriculum in the Meher Schools?
One might ask, how does one do that? We don’t explicitly talk about Meher Baba but we try to live his principles at the school. We consciously support our staff in trying to live his principles of toleration, harmony, avoidance of lower motivational patterns of anger, criticalness and so forth, in their dealings with one another and in their dealings with children. We ask them never to criticize children or evaluate them, even when the children are not in their presence and to foster individual creativity rather than competitive learning in the children.

Very interesting.
We also try to structure learning in a way that fosters the idea of being part of a group rather than the isolated island of the separative ego. Children, for example, study at tables rather than individual desks – tables where they are all together and can talk with one another and ask questions of one another. When they present materials before the class instead of coming up one by one, they come up in little groups. And if one makes a mistake, they ask the others what the answer is. So they get used to associating cooperation with learning rather than competition.

Do you train the teachers before they start teaching the children?
The teachers…95% of the teachers are members of Sufism. So they learn these principles in their Sufi classes. They talk about them explicitly with one another at school. They try to formalize them by writing manuals that operationalize a bit on how they use those principles in the classroom.
Another way we imbue children with these principles is through the curriculum, which places a heavy emphasis on the arts, primarily song and drama. We have two children’s choruses at our school and produce two ambitious plays each year. Students of Sufism have written over 100 songs especially for the children at the Meher Schools that bring to life the principles of Baba’s New Humanity and many of the plays the children perform have been written for the same purpose. We hope to publish a songbook next year, illustrated by Diane Cobb, called Morning of My Life that brings together the favourites among these songs.

So this is one aspect of your outreach programme. Are there any others?
From time to time we have put out a book that is geared for the general public. Murshida Duce wrote a book called What Am I Doing Here? It was meant to capture the interest of people who live out in the world who are beginning to frame questions of a deeper nature about life — Why is there suffering? What is death? What happens after death? — these kinds of things. She felt that Meher Baba’s message answers many of these questions and that he wanted the world to know these truths.

In 1966, Meher Baba gave me the mandate to go and tell the world that Meher Baba is God in human form. Throughout my life as I was growing up in Meher Baba’s fold, he emphasized again and again sharing his name with the world, which I have been doing through Beloved Archives and Glow International. Are Sufis going out into the world and sharing his name with others and do you have public programmes that would help his name to be disseminated, his message to be disseminated?
First, it is important to differentiate between the plan Meher Baba had for you and the plan he had for Sufism.

Right.
He directed you to do that and that is how you serve him. Sufism he directed not to spread his name or his message in the world, but to live his principles of love, trust, harmony, cooperation and so on, in our daily lives. So that is assuredly what we concentrate on. We have never been directed to do otherwise. The one exception is that he has asked us to take charge of his book, God Speaks. We do that with great conscientiousness to make certain that we always have fine quality editions, the best printing that we can achieve. We also recently subsidized an English language printing of God Speaks within India to allow this edition, which appears almost identical with the one sold in America, to be sold there at a reduced price.

Now to focus a little bit on the role of the Murshida. To what extent do you, as Murshida, direct the lives of the members of the Order? And as a follow up, is implicit obedience to your wishes a prerequisite to becoming a member?
As with many questions of a spiritual nature, there aren’t black and white answers. So I am going to begin with a little bit of background. First the term “obedience” used in the spiritual sense is much misunderstood. I think if people took a moment to open Baba’s Discourses, where he talks about the relation between a spiritual teacher and student, their questions would be dissolved in a moment. It’s a highly lucid, simple and direct explanation.
Obedience in the worldly sense is in a different world from obedience in a spiritual sense. Obedience in the literal sense refers to a power relationship. If you take a bipolar dimension, one of the many bipolar dimensions that create illusory reality, and put at one end “power” and at the other end “lack of power” or “weakness”, then obedience in the worldly sense would be any relationship along that dimension — a relation of one with less power to one with more power. Weaker to stronger. Now, I’ll try to contrast that with obedience in a spiritual sense.

But that was the follow-up question. My initial question was, as Murshida, are you called upon to direct the … let’s put it this way, is it incumbent in your role of Murshida to direct the lives of your mureeds?
The role of a Murshida or Murshid is to nurture and foster the student’s increasing ability to surrender to their highest knowing of love. That is the sole and central purpose of a Murshid or spiritual guide. It is to help the student increasingly yield to, or obey higher love. This is obedience in the spiritual sense.
Most often a teacher does this by watching for examples of especially sweet and loving behaviour of a student — it might be something fresh and new for them — and taking pains to recognize it and value it, bringing home to the student its importance so he or she can consolidate this new learning and move forward. Usually weaknesses of a student are not spoken of at all. Mostly a Murshid guides the lives of students by supporting their expanded understanding of life as they come to them and as they begin to explore trying to live them. Then the Murshid tries to nurture this growth.
Now, from time to time students do ask questions of a practical nature, like: Should I take this job? Should I marry this person? Should I follow this medical treatment that my doctor recommended? In those cases, I normally try to be light and commonsensical. Rather than giving a specific answer, I encourage the student to get more information about what is before him or her, or in some cases, to consult with a professional if that proves to be relevant. I try to encourage students to feel safe in the world, to feel that the world belongs to Meher Baba and that he is in his world. That the world is perfect if they accept it, accept life, take up their role in the world responsibly and with sincerity and then love him. So, I try to demystify ideas of a practical nature and encourage trust that Baba is with them as they go about their daily affairs in the world.

This is a follow up: Meher Baba said that he would hold himself responsible for the spiritual welfare for all those who may be prepared to and do follow a Murshid or Murshida of Sufism Reoriented. Do you personally feel absolved of all responsibility since as Murshida you are often called upon to direct the lives of your mureeds?
Since the kind of direction that I offer students is to support and nurture their ability to honour their highest understanding of love, that isn’t the kind of relationship that builds karma. It frees karma! That’s far away from the give-and-take of the marketplace of illusory reality that builds karma. So I am not worried about incurring karmic responsibility. In addition, I also regularly offer up our lives to Meher Baba. I ask him to take what we bring and make it his own. And I believe that he does that.

A little bit about the mureeds. Those who become members or mureeds of Sufism Reoriented have to be qualified to be members. One of the criteria, as mentioned in the Charter, is to be able to cherish no material ambitions. How does this play out as a member of the organization, while living and working in the marketplace? Apparently for most of us, it would be most difficult.
Well that’s an important question and a good one to ask in the context of America – America in the present times. Most of my students are actively involved in the world. I believe that an active life of responsibility helps to anchor the students’ dedication to Meher Baba by providing many practical channels for living his principles and sharing them with others. I am immensely pleased when Sufi students are vitally involved in the world.
Our members represent a cross-section of American vocations. They are in every trade except plumbing and in every profession. They include nurses, receptionists, computer operators, schoolteachers, construction workers, contractors, doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc.
     You have to remember that our students meditate on Meher Baba, following his guidance, for nearly an hour every day. They normally do this in the early morning hours before they leave for their work.

Would you explain that a little further?
Meher Baba in our Charter asked every member as a condition of membership to repeat his name for 30 minutes every day and to meditate on him for 15 minutes, either in his formless state or on his form. So our people do that every day. Murshida (Duce) used to say, “I can always tell when you are not doing your meditation because your eyes aren’t shining.”
     So, before they go into the workplace they have done their meditation. I ask them to remember Baba when they go out into the world, to accept the responsibilities that come to them, do them cheerfully, sincerely, to the best of their ability and love God. Then Baba comes and joins them. And in ways that are quiet but very significant, he transforms what they do. He makes it his.

Now, if any of the tenets mentioned in the Charter or in your opinion are violated or broken, are the members expelled as not having fulfilled their role as a Sufi mureed?
Here again, we need to build a little background. Processes of spiritual transformation normally unfold gradually and over time. When a deeper layer of consciousness becomes ignited and begins to press for expression, it often takes several years at the minimum before a new structure of thought and feeling has stabilized and the old, layer of consciousness has dissolved and dissipated. During this period of transition, Sufi students may have glimpses of higher truth that they are not yet able to consistently hold and realize. In time, they will be able to do this. But for a time these insights come as sporadic glimpses pointing a direction for the future. During these transitions it is not uncommon for the person to be pulled by a layer of consciousness that has become exhausted and is dying or by a transitory bundle of primitive sanskaras passing through their consciousness as a natural, organic part of their transformation. But the weight of their growth, the centre of gravity of their growth, is in the direction of honouring the higher valuing, knowing and loving that is the goal of Sufism.
     What is important is not whether a student makes a mistake, has misadventures, acts compulsively and so forth, in an isolated case. What is important is where the centre of gravity of their growth lies.

How are you increasing the membership of Sufism Reoriented?
When Sufism began in 1952, we had less than a dozen members. In the present, Sufism numbers close to 500. In the early years when Murshida Duce had only a few students, she said to Meher Baba, “I don’t know what to do. Where are my people? Where are my students?” He said, “Well, you know, it isn’t time. When it’s time I’ll send them to you.” So she accepted his guidance and she worked with this small handful of students. Then in the late 1960’s, early ‘70s, close to 300 young people came in a very brief span of time – maybe five to eight or ten years. It was a period of widespread disaffection of youth in America. Out of that turmoil many young people sought spiritual guidance and found themselves knocking on Murshida’s door. Suddenly our numbers were more than 300. Once again in the 1980’s, we had a big upsurge in membership. Since that time, our growth has been relatively quiescent. We take in new members, some of our people pass away or they accept a job and move to another city. But it all stays about in balance, somewhere between, I would say, 470, 480 members.

When they move to another city, do they not continue to be Sufis or mureeds?
In general we are not able to support patterns of life away from our centres. It would be difficult for me to take responsibility for students who don’t attend our classes or take part in our projects. However, when students are just away temporarily, we always send them classes on video so they can easily join us again when their work is finished.
But let me return to your earlier question. We learned from Meher Baba early on that it is Meher Baba who sends us our members. We don’t proselytize or look for members. We don’t tell our people: Tell your neighbours about us, they might like it. We feel that those who are destined to serve Meher Baba through his American Sufi path find their way to us through internal guidance. Those who come often have remarkable stories to tell about how they learned about us: a chance encounter here or there. We take the view that Baba sends to us those who are destined to follow him on his American Sufi path — students come or not according to his will and purpose.

Among the obligations of a member of the Order, it is important to study the writings of Meher Baba, specially the Discourses and God Speaks. Could you explain what form of study of Meher Baba’s work assumes in Sufism Reoriented?
Let’s see, the Discourses. We use the Discourses regularly. I think that they are a remarkable handbook of practical spirituality. And so, of course, we refer to the Discourses time and again. I personally love to read in them whenever I have a moment, the style of exposition is so lucid, the topics dealt with so important and everything so clear.

Are the Discourses and God Speaks an integral part of the Sufi workshops?
In our Charter, Baba asked that all our members, as a requirement, read and study the Discourses and God Speaks vigorously. In addition, these two books, as well as other messages of Baba, form the backdrop for all Sufi classes. We consider them the authoritative spiritual documents of this age. So they are at the backdrop of everything we do. It isn’t that we have a consecutive sequence of classes that takes one topic from the Discourses and then the next one, etc. It’s more that as topics are chosen for classes, we consider the Discourses and God Speaks to be integral to all that is taught. They find their way into our dramas. We did a three-hour comedic musical drama on the winding and unwinding of sanskaras called Sister Evangeline this was meant in earnest to be a vehicle for helping students understand the principles outlined in the Discourses and in God Speaks. So, they are woven in, are inextricable in our curriculum.

Not all followers of Meher Baba are Sufis but all Sufis are followers of Meher Baba. Do both groups interact with each other and work towards a common goal of sharing Meher Baba’s message of love, truth and universal unity? And I refer to the time when Murshida Duce encouraged and set up the Meher Baba League in Berkeley in the 70s. Do the Sufis interact closely with Baba lovers in California and in the Washington, DC area?
Here again, a little background is helpful. In 1952 when Meher Baba chartered Sufism and created the outline for his Universal Spiritual Center at Myrtle Beach, he was very explicit that these two groups were to function independently of one another. He was asked explicitly, “Well, should Ivy work on projects here at the Centre?” He said, “No. No. The groups have no direct connection.” In a moment I’m going to qualify that.
Baba always spoke of these groups separately. For example, when speaking of his centres in the U. S., he said that one would be by a lake or forest; one on a mountaintop; one on a desert; one in the heartland; and one in a city. Someone said, “Well, where will Murshida’s Centre be?” And he said, “Wherever she is.” So even from the beginning in his statements about Sufism and his American centres, a distinction was made. But then he went on to say that the groups, though separate, would have an indirect connection that emanates from the fact that he is the patron of Sufism and the patron of these Centres. We are part of one family. So, he expected we would have relations of amity, attitudes of support and readiness to help one another if there was a call. And I feel that down through the decades that has occurred in remarkable ways. First of all, Baba set the model for that. He showed us how that would work. He didn’t leave it up to our imagination. He right away asked Terry Duce, Murshida’s husband, to manage the construction and development of the Universal Center at Myrtle Beach, which he then conceived on this broad plan that he had created for the Byramangala Centre.

Oh, is that right?
Yes. Four centres in one, each with a different purpose. Then there would be six different institutions there: a mental hospital, a hospital, a home for saints, an abode for advanced souls, a spiritual academy, etc. He said it would be a $10 million project and he wanted Terry Duce to take charge of the construction and development of this Centre. Of course he knew that Terry would not be free to do that. Mr. Duce had Government work with oil rights in the Middle East. And so he was not free to do that. But he asked him in order to set an example, to say, see, this is what we do. We don’t care that he is associated with Sufism through his wife.

Did he come up with any blueprints?
No. He didn’t approach the task. He said, “No, I couldn’t. I am not able to consider that.”
     Then after we published God Speaks in 1955, Murshida Duce wrote to Baba and asked, “What should I do with the profits?” We had sold the only property we owned in Marin County to fund the printing of God Speaks. And now the books were beginning to sell and she wanted to know what to do with any profit. Baba considered this. He went back and forth a little bit and then finally he decided we should give 50% of it to the Myrtle Beach Center. So we have done that each year…

Is that right?
Of course, it doesn’t amount to much because we’ve priced God Speaks just to cover the cost. We’ve priced it to sell, as they say. But what little net profit there is, we share with them equally

Any other projects?
Other things Sufism has done in cooperation with Baba groups include an art exhibit at Myrtle Beach in 2000. We selected 30 paintings from our collection of about 150 framed paintings of Meher Baba done by artists in our group, many of whom are highly skilled professionals.
     Since our technical department has grown, we have also consulted with Baba lovers regarding publications or video production. Sufism edited and published an excellent book on Baba’s favourite poet, Hafiz, by Dan Ladinsky of Myrtle Beach. It is a book of beautiful poetry that Dan Ladinsky calls, “renderings” of Hafiz. We were able to publish Dan’s poems, in a high-quality, low-cost volume titled I Heard God Laughing.
     Since 1994, we have also regularly helped with the Witness Series of video documentaries of the mandali and others who spent time with Meher Baba. Sufism provides the editing, film enhancement, titles and sometimes background music.
     Then on the side of Baba centres, they have extended to us many kindnesses and assistance of all sorts when we have visited their centres, as at Myrtle Beach and Meherabad, and have given kind permission to use film footage and that sort of thing. So in all, Sufism and Baba groups are following Baba’s plan of independent functioning, but with feelings of amity and support, like members of one family.

To conclude our conversation, the Murshid or Murshida designates his or her successor. What attributes do you see in a mureed that would qualify him or her to head the organization in the future?
Well, here again, I don’t think of myself as designating a successor. I believe that Meher Baba will send a successor and my task is to recognize the one whom he sends. The person destined to be the Murshid is always the one who is closest to God, who can capture in their own consciousness, the broad streams of knowing and loving that lie close to Divinity. So that is what a Murshid looks for. It’s the only characteristic, the only quality a Murshid looks for.

Thank you very much.

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